Las Vegas Sun NewsArgentinian dice players being sued by Wynn Resorts for alleged ‘dice sliding’
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2 October 2011
2:52 p.m.
VEGAS INC archives
Two gamblers from Argentina arrested in July on charges of cheating at gambling are now being sued by Wynn Las Vegas over an alleged "dice sliding" scheme.
The Strip resort filed suit last week in Clark County District Court against Leonardo Miguel Fernandez, Veronica Elena Dabul and parties yet to be identified called "Does I-X."
The lawsuit said the two are from Buenos Aires and are frequent visitors to Las Vegas and to the Wynn and even have Red Card rewards cards for the Wynn and sister property Encore.
Wynn charged in its lawsuit that the two, and the unidentified parties, were involved in a cheating scheme this summer in which a craps player, supposedly rolling the dice, actually slides the dice down the table without making them tumble, allowing a preselected winning side to remain facing upward.
Wynn surveillance tapes from July 17 show Dabul and Fernandez playing craps from 10:37 p.m. to midnight, with Fernandez allegedly sliding the dice at least seven times without betting, the suit says.
"During the same seven slides in the two hour and 15 minute span, Dabul and/or two unidentified men place bets using Dabul’s chips," the lawsuit said. "Defendants won a total of $145,000 from these seven slides alone."
The suit charges Dabul and others "placed wagers with their pooled financial resources all the while knowing that Fernandez would slide the dice and their chances at winning increased."
"Through their individual acts of cheating and their conspiracy to defraud and cheat at the game of craps by sliding, defendants left the Wynn Las Vegas with over $700,000," says the suit, which alleges fraud and civil conspiracy as the alleged cheating team allegedly used distraction techniques to conceal its activities.
Records show the defendants have not yet answered the suit, which seeks unspecified damages including punitive damages.
The lawsuit said Fernandez and Dabul were arrested July 18 for, among other things, cheating at gambling.
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The table supervisor is also culpable as well it's their job to make sure the person holding the dice also has a wager down, I could under stand that it could happen once but not seven times. I have thrown dice before and it would be called a " NO ROLL" even by the dealer if it didn't make it to the back wall or if the dice didn't flow naturally.
I hope this doesn't mean the dice tables will go to using cards instead of the bones cause I like throwing the dice that's the best part.
CasinoKid is right on point in his comments. The "Stick Man" (or "Dealer") is in control of the dice. A PLAYER (Shooter) with a bet down rolls the dice. If the dice do NOT hit the FAR WALL, then the Dealer is supposed to TELL the SHOOTER to throw the dice to make them hit it.
If the Shooter does not comply on the next roll - then it is UP TO the dealer to call a "NO ROLL."
The "diamond shapes" in the wall cushions are there to ENSURE irregular outcomes occur - and ELIMINATE the possibility of "sliding" the dice; thus precluding the ability to "fix" a winning dice combination (by cheaters).
BOTTOM-LINE: THERE ARE RULES TO GAMBLING.
If a Dealer, the Pit Boss, or other casino employees at the table ALLOW a roll of the dice - that DOES NOT hit the far wall - I don't see how you can PROVE that the Shooter is the one cheating.
I would also conclude that the Dealer might be in on the action to permit "sliding" the dice. After all, he passes the dice, he controls bets, the way bets are placed on the table, and calls winners and amounts to be payed out. The Dealer is in charge of managing how the game is played.
Anyone who has been around Las Vegas, or any dice game, for a while - knows there are many ways to cheat, steal, and get away with it. That is why there is so much security.
I suggest that WYNN Casinos check out the tables where these Argentine guys were playing and do some analysis. That is what you have cameras tracking game-play for. Further, if your employees DO NOT ENFORCE Casino rules for shooting dice (or any other kind of table game) - fire the employees, and ban the the players from the Casino.
Something is not right at Steve Wynn's Casinos, because neither he, nor his casino managers, are amateurs. However, one other possibility exists - and that is POOR TRAINING. In the rush to build, expand, and open new casinos, it is possible that NEW employees do not get adequate training so they can SPOT A CHEATER, or actions that cause cheating to be suspect.
I hope ALL casinos check out their dealers, and enforcement of gaming rules - because they will be the lossers if they do not. This may not be an isolated case of cheating - just at WYNN.
Just how can these guys have been dice sliding? Didn't old Steve install the dowel in the surface of the table, so that when someone "slides", the dowel creates a roll? I guess when someone beats Steve, a lawsuit is fine, but when others need restitution they're lawsuits are frivolous wastes of time.
Hell, I'm not a lawyer, but I don't see they can go far sueing someone who they feel defrauded their casino when every one of the people being sued is in possession of Red Cards issued by Wynn/Encore, the possession of such cards implying they were indeed labeled as trustworthy, spent a lot of money and were considered to be regular customers. I would think they could have fun with that in court; in saying that Mr. Wynn gave them prestigious rights and privileges in their casino, but because they won, they are now considered untrustworthy and he goes after them for damages?
Just my take on it. Good points by the above commenters also. In that the pit bosses should have smelled something foul going on and fixed it right there on the spot. Now it only can get fixed by going into court in the company of a battalion of lawyers?
Oh well. As we say in Las Vegas, nothing in Las Vegas should shock you, and if it does, YOU NEED TO MOVE!
This incident is an embarrassment to the Wynn and paints a board picture of implied incompetence to the personnel in the pit with the admission from the Wynn that several dice slides did happen without an on-the-spot correction from either the floor staff or surveillance.
This dice sliding incident is most distrubing, being that so many dice slides were allowed without a correction. It will be hard for the Wynn to prove their case, letting so many dice slides occur without a correction. The players can claim this was normal, because no one in the pit corrected their actions.
Does the Wynn have posted rules in their casino stated what the Wynn considers a legal dice roll? Does the Nevada Gaming Commission have a description in the gaming rules spelling out what constitutes a legal and proper dice roll?
Letting these players slide the dice, and letting them cashout (insult to injury), and now filing a lawsuit claiming damages....the Wynn has lost status on this incident in the gaming community.
Someone should have said something after the first dice slide!
I could see if it happened once on one giant bet where Wynn would go after them. It sounds like the dice sliding was going on and on. How on earth are the craps guys allowing this..even once? There are like 3 or 4 guys watching the action..they all missed many "dice slides" that didn't reach the end of the table? Sounds VERY implausible. I would need to hear more on how the employees missed this time after time.
All I can picture in my head right now is that scene from "Casino" with Di Niro and Joe Bob Brigs. And just like that scene it's either employees who were all in on it, or people too stupid to know better and shouldn't have been there in the first place. If it's the latter, I wouldn't be surprised if the surveillance footage shows a female shill flashing cleavage that distracted all of these morons so that they couldn't see the dice slide because they were more focused on her.
@ColinFromLasVegas:
Nevada Laws regarding casinos and gambling are not only very strict, but very unique as well. Especially when it comes to cheating, which is what happened here. They didn't win fair and square. They violated the rules of the game, so their winnings are ill-gotten and illegal. Doesn't matter how trusted they were as players. And if it's determined that Wynn's employees were in on this, not only could they, but even the casino itself could face fines.
Nevada laws are strict when it comes to both players and casinos, but it's for a good reason: Protect the industry from both cheating players AND cheating casinos. Odds stacked against you are one thing. People have a belief that they can win, so they keep playing. But if people thought for a second that there was no way that they could win at all because the house was cheating somehow, they wouldn't play at all, and that would affect EVERY casino. Same with regulations as to why casinos have to have so much cash on hand: Players need to be assured that they get cold hard cash no matter how unlikely. After all, who would want to bet somewhere they knew that the house couldn't pay them their winnings?
As a former craps dealer, I can assure you, this happened because nobody on the table (dealers, boxman, floorman) were paying any attention and this group knew it. I'm not saying the Argentinians shouldn't be punished for cheating, but honestly, every member of that dice crew should be fired. Especially given the nature of the economy and job market in Vegas, I guarantee you there are 100 dealers for each of the 4 members of this crew that would love the opportunity to work at the Wynn and make the money those dealers make (tip sharing or not).
And as a personal comment to the crew: You lumpies need to go back to dealing snapperhead at the El Cortez.
Lol, you guys making comments seemed to have overlooked the part about un-named accomplices, this could very likely be the whole crew at the crap table. I won't speculate on all the possible scenarios but of all the ways to cheat this is one of the most unsophisticated and easy to spot schemes. And one of the few things eye in the sky can actually capture with very little trouble. For the people involved to think that cameras would not be watching with the kind of money involved is sheer stupidity.
I smell a rat! I have lost my share of bets, as have many other serious players, but to lose a bet and then later cry cheating because you can't recover is more than being a welcher, it's a cry-baby.
As I see it, the house kept letting these cats play in hopes of recovering, yet at every big wager they made, they won and time after time when the house thought big bet the house will win, they didn't. No different than a rogue trader in the market, such as USB, Barings Bank, Societe Generale, Sumitomo Corporation, Barings Bank, or Allied Irish Bank all of which lost billions for their employers.
The only difference between these Corporations and Wynn is that Wynn is trying to use "Claw-Back" to sue, while these Corporations would just charge their agents and see to it that they get jail time. For Wynn to use his legal team, which is on retainer, to go after these winners is sick, that is just Wynn's way of making them pay and not walking away with as much.
These cats should sue for all court costs and more for defamation and Wynn's capricious moves to "Black Book" them.
This is a civil lawsuit filed by Wynn. There is an issue of implied consent since they were paid on the bets they made. They have an argument to a degree, but no jury in las vegas will rule in their favor. Criminally they got caught, that helps wynn. Once their criminal charges are adjucated they will return to argentina far from the reach of wynn. Articl is kind of a moot point. Another powder puff local vegas article portraying steve wynn as a victim.
I used to work for wynn. Its his style to fire everyone, even the relief who was on that table for that week.
Generally speaking, gamblers are a smart lot and the crap shooters are smarter than an average gambler. They don't play in vaccum. There is layers of security starting with fellow crapshooters, boxman, pit boss and the eye in the sky. So this Argentinian couple, by-passed all the layers of security, to cheat the casino, to the tune of 700K! This is not only difficult to fathom but perturbing to anyone with an average intelligence. How ironic is that, none of the layers of security caught them cheating, till the casino lost some hefty money. I suspect that the casino knew all along that they were not cheating and they were waiting for this couple to loose. When the casino lost big instead,they called the Gaming Board and they were the ONLY people to to detect that the couple were cheating !! This is a despicable and desperate tactic by a reputable casino to use on unsuspecting gamblers. Now, no decent gambler will trust or feel safe to gamble there. The ultimate loser is the casino, to the tune of $700 million, over long term and this is just to recoup $700,000. This is horrible way to conduct business.
Notwithstanding my prior comments, I have an idea that may provide PROOF (or at least credibility) that "sliding" the dice - so many times in a row - is possible. I have seen such "runs of luck" happen on a Crap table - over the 30 years I have visited and lived in Las Vegas. I have even did it myself, holding the dice for about 15 minutes. This includes my favorite "hard 8" bets - and winning (against "the odds").
However, in this case, I would believe that the Dealer, Boxmen, Pit Boss, et al, would have taken a CLOSE LOOK at what was happening - as the wins progressed. It seems THIS DID NOT happen. Yet it can a couple of minutes - during and after a roll - to pay out winnings and place or increase new bets..
So in looking for an answer as to HOW this happened, I recall some of the "old" ways people used to cheat Casinos. One of them was (is ?) to replace the Casino dice with "FIXED" DICE - dice that will roll a seven, or whatever it is "shaved" (or otherwise weighted, etc.) to produce..
Having a run of luck on the Crap table is one thing, but 7 wins (the "point numbers" were not in the article) from "sliding" the dice, is a bit much for me to believe.
I also would think that the attorney that these Argentine gamblers require, should ENSURE that the Wynn Casino can PROVE that the "sliding" of dice on a Crap table - IS INDEED POSSIBLE. It takes a skilled gambler - and is not easy to hide.
As for Wynn and Encore Casinos... when they find out WHO was helping, or ignoring the success of, the players, they should also find out WHY no one STOPPED the game to CHECK THE DICE. In my experience when shooting Craps, there is ALWAYS ample time and opportunity for the Dealer, Boxmen, et al, to OBSERVE and EXAMINE any "action" that may cause them concern (e.g., large BETS and WINNINGS).
THIS WAS (apparently) NOT DONE.
It will be interesting to see where this "case" goes - since it seems to be based on the (normally) UNLIKELY possibility that a gambler CAN, indeed, "slide" a pair of dice on the felt material - and make a point that will cause a WIN - 7 times in a row.
I would believe the "FIXED" dice scenario as more probable. But WHO HAS THE DICE now?.
Good luck! with this one, Mr. Wynn.