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A model of a DesertXpress station is shown on Friday, March 25, 2011, at the UNLV Science and Engineering building.
Monday
21 November 2011
12:28 p.m.
Richard N. Velotta
VEGAS INC Archives
- DesertXpress project takes another step forward (11-18-11)
- Panelists: Opponents of high-speed rail making familiar arguments (11-04-11)
- Proposed DesertXpress high-speed rail line chugging along (10-26-11)
- Neighborhood association slams DesertXpress rail plan (10-13-11)
- With lack of funding, will DesertXpress ever lay its tracks? (7-25-11)
- DesertXpress hopes for federal loan, aims for 2012 start on work (10-10-2011)
VEGAS INC: Rick Velotta discusses DesertXpress
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del.icio.usVEGAS INC reporter Rick Velotta discusses plans and funding for DesertXpress, the high-speed rail that will connect Southern California and Southern Nevada
As I covered a panel discussion at the recent Western High-Speed Rail Alliance conference at which a representative of DesertXpress Enterprises made a presentation about high-speed rail in the West, I found myself wondering whether a room full of rail experts would question some of the flaws of a system connecting Las Vegas and Victorville, Calif.
They didn’t.
That led me to the conclusion that either most of the experts in the room believe the DesertXpress plan would be successful despite its flaws or that they didn’t think there were any flaws.
Or, maybe they just didn’t care to say anything negative because most in the industry really want to see it succeed.
Like it or not, DesertXpress is further along than any high-speed rail system in the country and for those who dream of someday developing a network of fast trains crisscrossing the United States, it represents the best hope for having something that passengers can see, touch and ride that resembles what Europe and Asia have had for years.
Unfortunately, if the system fails it could forever doom high-speed ground transportation, a concept I’m convinced would benefit our country if done right.
The biggest problem the rail industry has today is that it’s overpopulated with decision-makers rooted in the past. They’re happy with status quo, satisfied with a rail system that will run at 150 mph, which, by today’s standards, is hardly high-speed.
They’re fine with a system in California that uses commuter rail and freight tracks instead of a dedicated line.
DesertXpress is OK that Victorville is a southern terminus and hopeful that somehow, someday a rail line that isn’t even in the planning stages will connect it to the California system at Palmdale.
Whatever happened to vision and entrepreneurship? It’s apparently not living in the world of high-speed rail. There are too many lawmakers and administrators getting advice from existing train manufacturers, unwilling to consider the potential for something really groundbreaking to put the United States at the forefront of high-speed transportation instead of trailing the likes of France and Italy.
One of my colleagues across town, Adrienne Packer, made the case that by the time DesertXpress and California’s high-speed system are completed, probably by 2034, their technology will have been lapped by innovations like driverless cars. With truly high-speed systems and maglevs already operating commercially in other parts of the world, it’s safe to say the system DesertXpress envisions already is obsolete.
Related to this discussion, a recent flurry of updates about DesertXpress have unleashed a new collection of misinformation that needs to be clarified.
Critics have unfairly bashed DesertXpress as a government boondoggle. The company building this train is private and no public money has been spent. It’s true that the company has applied for a $4.9 billion federal loan and that the application is in the process of being evaluated by the Federal Railroad Administration.
To me, that doesn’t constitute the spending of taxpayer dollars. If the loan is approved and it fails, maybe then the critics can complain about the use of public money. I’m still not convinced the company would get such a sizable loan, but we all know that there are extraordinary politics involved in this deal so it wouldn’t be surprising if it’s approved.
One other point of clarification: We need to get over Victorville being the southern terminus for the project. It should be abundantly clear to all that this train isn’t something intended for use by Southern Nevadans. The only benefit we may get is the additional tourists it could bring to our city.
If the developers cared at all about local residents, they would have found a way to engineer the train all the way to Los Angeles or Orange County without having to rely on the very iffy Victorville-to-Palmdale connection to miraculously occur.
But they don’t.
It’s all about trying to make a buck bringing Southern Californians to Las Vegas, which I’m still unconvinced will ever happen given the difficulty of prying Californians from their cars.
But who knows, maybe there are more people out there than we know that won’t mind parking their cars and riding a train to Las Vegas where they’ll have to rely on taxis, buses and the monorail to get around.
For the sake of the future of high-speed rail in the West, let’s hope so.
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While I agree with the majority of the article, your premise that a $4.9B Loan would not constitute "the spending of taxpayer dollars" seems shortsighted. The loan would be the allocation of resources that are needed elsewhere. Furthermore the premise of your article which is that this is a project doomed to fail (a result which would preclude repayment of the loan) seems to indicate that this is a poor allocation of resources for the government to tout let alone fund. I am certain that Solyndra did not think that its loan guarantee (not even a loan) was not the spending of taxpayer dollars.
One of the fundamental flaws in the dream for a high-speed rail network in this country is that it simply isn't needed. President Eisenhower demonstrated this with the Interstate Highway system and the shift in how freight moved intermediate distances.
Conventional rail is still very efficient for long-haul bulk freight, but is not acceptable for moving people. Airlines move people very quickly and at (for the most part) affordable prices. Trains can never match the alrlines for either in this country today.
Trucks move medium amounts of goods over medium distances in an efficient manner as well, delivering directly to the destination in many cases, unlike rail which must go to warehouses which introduces additional delays.
No passenger train for the L.A./Las Vegas route can hope to be economically viable. Air travel is faster and cheaper on a per-passenger basis, and travel by car is much cheaper still on a per trip basis when more than one person is in the vehicle. The additional time to drive isn't that much when one adds in the time to get to an airport, go through security, and then get transportation at the destination.
Driving has the additional benefit of allowing one to stop along the way to enjoy a meal at Peggy Sue's Diner, too. That alone is worth the drive. :)
Again, high-speed rail is not something that we really need when viewed in the light of our country's size and structure. And we certainly don't need it to Victorville.
You facists are at again. "Stop the spending now!" It seems like 'republicans' have no problem spending billions of dollars and countless lives on a war over environmentally disastrous crude and 'weapons of mass destruction' in Iraq then spending even more building their nation but as soon as a progressive thinker suggests building infrastructure here you all throw a temper tantrum. Stop. This isnt the 80's and Reagan (along with your fuhrer Hitler) are long gone. Stop trying to prevent progress. Move forward. Building more airports and roads isnt progress. As gas becomes more expensive, and the (idiot) dream of electric cars far from viable, rail becomes the greener future. If you love fascism, go bow down to Nixons grave. The remainder of us will be building tomorrow.
If it runs right through the Las Vegas airport and up the strip it will probably succeed, but we all know it won't get anywhere near either destination. Regardless, getting OUT of Southern California (San Diego, LA), TO Victorville is the worst part of the trip. Once you're out of Victorville you're pretty much home free. This is ridiculous. Even if it is a private company, they're still eating up valuable real estate, good will, and resources (private or public) that can be better utilized. PLEASE STOP THIS.
Ideally, we would create more jobs for Nevadans by setting up a high-speed rail system between Reno and Las Vegas.
This would allow people who live in one city to possibly find jobs in the other. Another line would go from Las Vegas to Wendover, making it easier to bring people around the state who are visiting from Idaho and SLC -- and once again the whole route would be in-state. Then we'd bring political pressure to bear on sending rails across the United States -- through Wendover and Reno in the North and through Las Vegas in the South. This would set up Nevada cities as major passenger rail hubs.
The line to Victorville might wind up being a railway to nowhere, but if it does work out we could expand it. I have great doubts that Californians are going to race to Victorville in order to hop a train to Vegas. However, I HOPE that I'm wrong, because high-speed rail could certainly alleviate transportation problems that the USA has now.
You sound like you don't recognize the flaws either. And you mention them in your article, but tell us to "get over" the Victorville terminus! That is the MAIN FLAW and we can't GET OVER something that makes no sense at all! It clearly is a boondoggle. I agree that high-speed rail can be a positive for this country, but it has to be done as part of an overall plan, not done piecemeal. We don't want another monorail....
We already have high speed transportation....they're called airplanes.
Exhibit A:
I have to drive to Cherry Valley, CA just south of Victorville next week for work. Even if there was a rail, I'd still drive.
Why? It's only a 3 hr drive. And more importantly, what would I do when I got to Victorville on a rail?? Rent a car to drive the last little portion of the trip!? Or, take public transportation, (if it even exists) and then not have a car when I get to my destination?? I don't think so. It makes no sense.
It will be a HUGE failure! All they have to do is do some simple math.
Lets say 2 couples who live in LA decide to head up to vegas for the weekend, one of the couples has a nice new SUV that gets around 25 mpg on the highway, so they all chip in a fill her up, costs about $45 and they hit the road.
After about an hour they are approaching Victorville and they consider taking the new high speed train. The gas gauge is still near full and they can easily make it to vegas without filling up again.
One in the group pulls out his iphone and starts working the math. The train ride will cost them $50 each way, the parking will cost them $20 a day, the cab ride their hotel will cost them $50 (2 cabs, 1 won't hold the luggage of 4), they will also be spending another $150 cab fair to get around town. It's calculated that to ride the train will cost them about another $650 as compared to another $100 to continue on in the SUV.
What would your choice be?
Don't forget the (apparently invisible) 800lb ape in the room: The train to nowhere was doing just that until Reid pulled his support from the MagLev proposal and put it behind DesertXpress. There can be little doubt that this was in exchange for an endorsement from the Republican party members who are behind this.
The unanswered question is what else was involved besides the endorsement that quite likely saved Reid's re-election?
I forgot the cab ride back to the train station when they leave, that brings to grand total to ride the train to around $700, or $650 MORE than driving! It will be bankrupt within a year!
I wish we could 'Like' some of these comments.
The train is a boondoggle and everyone knows it. The only people that aren't smart enough to realize the obvious are the people who have nothing to lose. Where are the 3rd party engineers and financial accountants to check the books on this farce? It'd be great if we got the experts from Europe and China to put in their two cents. After all, they are decades ahead of us and always will be until we ask for an honest opinion.
I head to Vegas once or twice a year with a buddy and we have spoken at length about a bullet train to Vegas and how it might increase our visits. If the terminus was Anaheim or Downtown LA we were ready to buy annual passes. With it in Victorville and from reading another story seeing a price point of $50 each way, there is no savings in time or money over flying Southwest out of Orange County, LAX or Burbank.
Anaheim and an Annual Pass is what we really need!!!
The high-speed train concept does not make sense held alone but DOES make sense if viewed as part of a larger transportation system. The line between Las Vegas and Victorville is just a start.
Comment removed by moderator. - -
As a follow up to the 60 Minutes piece recently I would strongly encourage those that can to research this project to find out just what inside information he has and how he and his partners are going to make money off this deal. He keeps claiming he has acquired his wealth due to land deals. Yeah, insider land deals. Just watch the 60 Minutes segment and you'll see. Dirty Harry and Sig are up to something here which is why Harry switched allegiance from the Maglev to this project. The rail is antiquated, and will require costlier maintenance and upkeep fees. Somewhere, Harry's got a land deal cooking, or something. He and Sig really are up to no good with this project which is why they're pushing so hard for it.
This idea is about as good as building a monorail system that doesn't connect to the AIRPORT!
@johnsimmons...lol. I was thinking the same thing.
*He = Reid. As in "... inside information Reid has and ...."
My bad.
Any technology is outdated as soon as it hits the consumer. You drive out of dealership with a new car that contains technology that's already being redefined, upgraded, replaced. Same applies to train technology. I love the idea of high speed rail. High speed is 200 mph or more in my book. Make the links city to city or don't make them at all.
Let's see, a high-speed train from Victorville to Vegas helps motorists how? That's the least congested portion of the LA-Vegas trip. The bottleneck we are trying to relieve, by building a high-speed train in the first place, is in the LA area, morons. If idiotic thinking is required, you can always be sure our legislators are one step ahead of us!
A slow train to nowhere. This is another rip off by Reid and Sig rogich. Alot of money to make at the dispair of Las Vegas and all tax payers. This train cant make it passed the cajon pass because of the grades, but a real 300 mph Maglev train can. China wanted to front the 6 billion to get it going but Reid put a stop so his freinds could hose us with another rip off. What a shame that these well to do crooks will even take from us when times are this bad. 300 mph train to L.A. (1 hour) that ties in to our monarail everyone will use. A train that takes as long as the drive to and from Victorville then rent a car and drive another couple hours REALLY. It's faster and cheaper just to drive the whole way.
The major arguement on this hsr is it will go no where at Victorville and people will not stop at victorville and take a train from Victorville to Las Vegas, and that arguement is baseless.
If you take an airplane from LX airport in LA to Las Vegas, you need to leave home two and half hour before the plan taking off. One hour of drive from your home to the air port, half hour to find a parking space and walk to the counter to check in , and half hour for security check ...etc, and fly 40 minutes from LA to Las Vegasthe parking in the airport is $30 per day and the air line ticket is from $250 to $350 for round trip, it is not cheap, the Desert express will charge $100 for round trip which is much cheaper. It will take you 60 to 90 minutes to drive from LA, depending on where you live, to Victorville, and every 20 minutes there is one train leave for Las Vegas, and the travel time is 80 minutes to Las Vegas from Victorville. So taking the deser express is much cheaper, and there is no difference between take plan or the train.
However, if you drive from LA to Vegas, it will take you 5 to 6 hour for one trip or 10 to 12 hours for a round trip, and the gas is not cheap , $4 per gal, and it will take much more gas if the traffic is slow.
As to for people from Las Vegas to LA, most people travel to Las Vegas from Europe,or east coast coast by air, so , if they did not drive, they will rent a car whereever they stay, so why bother to rent at victorville and drive to LA ? or peole can park their car at Las Vegas, and take the train from Las Vegas to Victorville and the rent a car and drive to LA or other part of California , it is cheaper, and it is much faster than driving from Las Vegas to LA
The project will bring more economic activities to the Victor Valley and more tourists from Las Vegas to California .
Once this HSR is built, it will take only 80 minutes from Las Vegas to Victorville, which means Victorville is part of Las Vegas geographically, because if you drive from the south of LA to the North of LA, it will take you about 80 minutes as well , which means Las Vegas is closer for Californians
@frischee112 (Andrew Frisch)
Fascism has nothing to do with this... although Mussolini did make the trains run on time in Italy... If you truly care about infrastructure, you must separate the good infrastructure ideas from the bad, infrastructure ideas that benefit the people, that pull people out of their cars, from ideas that merely benefit the builders/vendors, like the DesertXpress, at the expense of the people. A slow, boring choo choo train from Las Vegas to Nowhere (=Victorville), using an already obsolete technology, will NOT get ANYBODY out of their cars. However, a MagLev train using the latest technology, (as in China), from Las Vegas to Anaheim (Disneyland) would be an attraction in itself, it would connect two world famous destinations, Disneyland and Las Vegas, and it would amplify the attraction of both destinations. More people would probably spend 2-3 days in Las Vegas, take the MagLev and spend 2-3 days at Disneyland, Orange County... maybe even visit the Nixon Presidential Library... "just fifteen minutes from Disneyland" ...where they could all "bow down to Nixons grave"... Andrew, the DesertXpress is a BAD idea. It will fail and kill all dreams of high speed trains in America. Don't fall for these DesertXpress hucksters! They're pitchin' snake oil.
Wow, a new "progressive" nut case has appeared on the scene! Andrew Frisch who takes the side of Nazi's by belittling what they did and stood for in killing Jews, Gypsies, Homosexuals, the mentally & physically disabled and countless others. Calling American's, no matter their political party, Nazi's is disgusting at its core and not to be tolerated, in my opinion. So, Andrew, every time you reveal your ignorance of history, every time you demean the memory of those brutally slaughtered, I will be there to denounce you as the ignorant bufoon you are!
A train to Los Angeles would make sense or Aneheim (Disney Land). My son went to college in Victorville...there is nothing there.
Don't waste the money........
Simple answer, " NO "
FIRST PROBLEM : The train is too slow. Mexico is going to overtake us in technology at this rate. What developed country still uses traditional rail at 150 mph? That's assuming it doesn't slow down or have stops, its not going to be much faster then driving. Worth it? Nope.
SECOND PROBLEM: VictorVille. White trash illegal immigrant melting pot of California. We really want to connect this this? No thanks.
I like how they say it wont be complete by 2034! HA! That's like saying I'm going to build a Yugo dealership that will be ready to open in 23 years.
REAL High speed rail to SoCal or nothing.
This is obviously nothing more than a political stunt. Amazing people can't see that.
We NEED to pound public money down rat holes. It is a compulsion shared by both political parties -- they just differ over to which rat holes to pound the money down. Don't get me wrong here, I like the idea of high speed rail transport between Las Vegas and everywhere within 500 miles. Considering the airport delays and inconveniences, high speed rail would be much faster than flying, far more comfortable -- and cheaper over that distance But Desert Xpress ain't it or even the beginnings of it. It is the Monorail one more time -- because it doesn't go where it has to go to actually make money.
If we MUST build high speed rail, start with a maglev freight line between Las Vegas and the Port of Los Angeles/Long Beach (or the multimodal yard at the end of the short line that serves the ports). That way, we could make our no-tax state attractive to foreign trade. Otherwise we will stay outside their zones of economic and business feasibility.
One huge, fundamental flaw in the "long term plan" for Desert Xpress is the idea that a train line will be extended from Victorville westwards to Lancaster or Palmdale. As a longtime rider of the L.A. region's "Metrolink" which has a train line going to Lancaster/Palmdale, I wish to point out the following: There are no Metrolink trains to any part of Los Angeles' affluent west side. There are no Metrolink trains to the San Fernando Valley's affluent west side or to the Conejo Valley. Every single train line which Metrolink operates, from Orange County, Riverside County, and the San Gabriel Valley runs to Downtown Los Angeles' Union Station. Las Vegas visitors would have to park and ride their local Metrolink train TO Union Station, then take a very long walk, with their luggage, in many cases up and then down two long flights ofo stairs, to change trains to the Lancaster/Palmdale line, which runs relatively infrequently.
Upon arriving at the Lancaster/Palmdale Metrolink station, the Las Vegas bound passengers would have to change trains AGAIN, to ride the non-existent train line between Lancaster/Palmdale and Victorville, and then change trains YET AGAIN, hauling their luggage with them.
Then upon arriving in Las Vegas the passengers would have to haul themselves and their luggage to a taxi or bus to reach their hotel. Three separate train rides, hauling luggage up and down two long flights of stairs at Union Station, plus a taxi or bus ride. After making that arduous trek once, I doubt a Los Angeles area train passenger would do that again. It's far less time and hassle to fly to Las Vegas from Orange County or LAX or Burbank or Ontario airports.
For those who drive from the Los Angeles Metropolitan Area to Las Vegas, the very slowest and worst part of the drive is the route up the Cajon Pass to Victorville. Having suffered the long, slow ride up the Cajon Pass, it's unlikely that the average driver is going to park his car, ride the Desert Xpress train,and then take a bus/cab to hotel.
Let's look at Desert Xpress for what it is: A project to create construction jobs, with no real likelihood that the project constructed will have any other value to society.
People like to talk about the Maglev train of China from Pu Dong airport to Shanghai, well, that is the only Maglev train China ever built, and the total distance is 25 miles and the cost is billions of dollars, and all the other long distance of HSR built in China used the traditional technology. Why China would like to spend billions of dollars to build a rail of only 25 miles ? To get the technology. Why all the other long distance HSR built in China was built with the traditional technology after the Maglev rail ? It is because of the cost of construction and very high cost to maintain of the Maglev rail.
From Las Vegas to Victorville it will take 80 minutes of travel with traditional HSR, while with Maglev rail , the travel time is 50 minutes, so, why spend billions more to save that 30 minutes of traveling time ?, besides, the maintaince cost of the Maglev rail is much more expensive, of coure the price of ticket will not be $50 with Maglev rail, but $150, it just does not make sense.
Firstly, SidneySpritzer, by itself the train to nowhere isnt viable. But when viewed as part of a western hsr network it is very smart. The Cali. HSR network will get built sooner or later and when its finished having a line already built will save future capital.
Secondly, Jerry Fink, thank you so much! You have opened my eyes. I should make all my decisions based on what people tell me on the internet. My ideology is progress which means I'm left winged. Speaking from facts, fascism is right winged and conservatism is right winged. I apologize you do little research but yelling at people online wont teach you anything. Read a book now and then. Thanks!! :)
This is the advantage of having a Desert Xpress project with a traditional steel wheel to rail technology. Aside from less cost to build as compared to Maglev, it is compatible with all rail-road standard. Another thing if the project's application includes up to Anaheim, I think the Record of Decision is not yet release 'till this time and still in the process of public hearing because of so many private-public property to be affected.
In regards to other half of the project from Victorville to Anaheim, I think it would be better for the State of California to initiate the project whether it is Maglev or not considering the benefit it will give to California by having more tourist travel from Las Vegas to Disneyland and other parts of the west coast.
the rail from Las Vegas to victorville is about 200 miles , with the train running at 150 miles per hous, it will take about 80 minutes from Vegas to Victorville, and the construction cost is about $6B , or $30 millions per mile.
From Victorville to Palmdale is about 60 miles, and the construction cost is about $1.8 B, and it will take about 25 minutes to travel from Victorville to Palmdale.
If we build the same high speed rail from Irvin of orange county to San Jose, the total distance is 400 miles, and the travel time is 160 minutes( if you drive, it will take you 7 hours along highway 5, and in the winter, highway 5 is always closed from bakerfield to LA) , and the construction cost is $12B with $30Million /mile)
So, Why it will cost close to $90B to build a High speed rail system from LA to San Jose, I do not get it.
I found this to be an interesting article and some of the comments are interesting as well. In the little research I have done it seems this high speed rail project is the first of its kind in the US. Though I may have missed something I think it is.
That is pretty significant when really pondered. It means that the "bugs" of implementation will be worked through and the lessons learned will be tremendous. It also means that the cost associated with other projects of this type should reduce as innovation and "experience" is realized.
Personally I think I might ride just to ride it. We need more trains! Also, if the price of fuel continues to rise ($.20 higher this year and this time then last) it will be the start of alternative transportation. The same fuel that can carry a plane-load of passengers (300?) can carry many more (and cargo) when using train (or I believe that is the way it is).